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Cosmic Fingerprints: "Occam's broom": Sweeping away data that doesn't fit your neat little theory
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Cosmic Comments: That's an old argument. They're saying information only becomes information after we give it a name. This fails ... http://t.co/vucOoVQQ
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Recent Comments
- Are the mutations that drive evolution random? (5)
{ Hello Perry, It seems atheists have created a newer argument that "DNA is not a code because there is no... } – May 12, 12:51 PM
- Gödel's Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century (157)
{ Hello, Mr. Marshall! I LOVE this article and I'm very interested on translating it to Portuguese. Do I have your... } – May 11, 2:12 PM
- The Mathematics of DNA (26)
{ Xiao-Jun Yang, your post writes about some kinds of higher mathematics - a closed book to me, so I fear... } – May 08, 5:17 AM
{ You need to obtain the orginal paper, and find these results. I look forword to hearing from you, and thank... } – May 05, 10:34 PM
- Atheist Richard Dawkins Appointed to Investigate UFO's (1)
{ Richard Dawkins,the famous British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and atheist was appointed to study the UFO. In a recent interview he... } – May 06, 8:02 PM
- Science Without Art; Art Without Science (1)
- "If you can read this sentence, I can prove God exists" (1224)
{ Better still, why not study the Vedas, in particular Srimad Bhagavatam, which gives the most comprehensive and detailed account of... } – Apr 30, 10:05 PM
{ I believe there are many areas in the Bible and Curan that we must have overlooked; God must be in... } – Apr 23, 2:21 PM
- Design in the Universe + Evil + Suffering=??? (182)
{ Sorry. Here is the correct link http://greeksan dnordics-wisdom andmyths.blogsp ot.com/p/four-y ugas-ages.html The history of mankind } – Feb 18, 12:12 AM
- Conception to birth, visualized (2)
{ Perry, thanks for sharing that video with your audience. I have to agree with Alexander that the gestation process is... } – Dec 04, 11:49 AM
- My Bell Labs - Lucent Technology Lectures (51)
{ Please define "information". This is not a petty query. You have often interchanged "coded language" and "information" before and continue... } – Apr 24, 8:57 AM
{ I have a question that is unrelated. I have recently viewed a program on TV "The Cosmos" Mention of the... } – Jan 08, 9:41 PM
- TalkOrigins' Misrepresentations of Werner Gitt and Information Theory (8)
{ I just want to add three journal abstracts about enzymes's active region, Donald et al showed the that enzymes are... } – Mar 26, 3:23 PM
- Evolution: The Untold Story, Part 1 (107)
- Testable Hypothesis for Intelligent Design, Pt 2 (106)
{ Hi Perry I like to know your opinion about the " Evolution is a blind watchmaker ". on http://www.yout ube.com/results ?search_query=e volution+is+a+b lind+ Thanks } – Mar 21, 4:55 PM
{ Perry, Brian Godawa, an Evangelical, has two handy research papers that I suggest you read: "Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography in the... } – Nov 14, 8:08 PM
- Atheist to Christian: 180 Degrees in 10 Seconds (526)
{ Mr Benzion- Please excuse Me for interrupting You at this point... HOWEVER--Somewh ere or Another... On one of Perry Marshall's MANY... } – Feb 13, 12:26 PM
{ Would you provide your Email Address? You are right, the church had not understood what was the message of Jesus.... } – Feb 11, 5:54 PM
- James Shapiro - Evolution: A View from the 21st Century (Book Review) (1)
{ Hi Perry, I have spent my weekend to read and listening all of your pdf and mp3. By far I... } – Feb 12, 2:24 AM
- A Closer Look at Genesis 1 (229)
{ Recently, I've wondered the following: What did the author of Genesis see? What was written and why was it written?... } – Dec 12, 8:46 AM
- Testable Hypothesis for Intelligent Design, Pt 3 (144)
{ Thanks for responding ( on faceBook).Have you had a chance to review the book by Kryon: The 12 Strands Of... } – Nov 25, 9:01 AM
{ "Junk DNA is cited all the time as a case against creationism. " It is, but it doesn't mean that... } – Apr 22, 9:30 AM
- Testable Hypothesis for Intelligent Design, Pt 4 (30)
{ Perry, my comment is not so much as your conclusions and hypothesis regarding DNA as a designed code. To me... } – Nov 20, 10:16 PM
{ Looking at the Big Picture, and from a slightly different angle... Perry, you must be on to something big... because... } – Oct 04, 5:09 PM
- A New Theory of Evolution (338)
{ radomir : Thank you for that excellent and very well-written paper. http://www.evol utionisprogramm ing.com/ } – Nov 11, 4:58 PM
{ Hi Perry, I run into your writing by looking for the reviews of Prof.Shapiro's new book on the web. I... } – Nov 10, 4:10 PM
- Intelligent Bacteria: Cells are Incredibly Smart (31)
{ IN PURSUIT OF AN ATHEOLOGY DEGREE ?Science is about observable facts and empirical evidence ? NOT God,? opened the atheist... } – Nov 07, 12:07 PM
- Romans 1: Yes, You Can Take It Literally (8)
- "Sitting on the Fence" (33)
{ If everything in nature obeys the laws of physics (and I believe it does), how are you making a difference... } – Oct 15, 2:29 AM
- James Shapiro Video: Evolution in the 21st Century (5)
- 7 Biology Myths No Electrical Engineer Would Ever Tolerate (52)
{ Perry, I hope this gets to you. I can't seem to find a simple way on your website or blog... } – Oct 02, 11:50 AM
- The Iron Curtain of 2010 (108)
{ The book is interesting,I'm in chapter 2 now. I almost put the book down after page 27 because it implies... } – Jan 08, 10:25 AM
- What Craig Venter's Synthetic Cell Says About the Origins Debate (19)
- The New Atheism, Genesis 2 & Symbiogenesis (10)
{ I've been a member here for I while, and I'm intrigued by Perry Marshall's intelligent design theory. I'm a science... } – Feb 24, 11:07 PM
- The Atheist's Riddle, Part 2: Two Kinds of Things & The Infinite Chasm (173)
{ Perry The statement was incorrect; so to my way of thinking, it was not "information" it was data. Information must... } – Feb 06, 8:27 AM
- The most famous, passionately argued, longest-running debate (240)
{ Hello Perry, I have been reading your blogs for perhaps a year now, and was at first thoroughly convinced in... } – Jan 26, 8:01 PM
- The Purpose of the Appendix: New Research (1)
{ ALL YOU, WESTERNERS ARE JUST WASTING YOUR TIME, I`M FROM NIGERIA I`VE SEEN BLACK MAGIC AT WORK.........HO W CAN YOU EXPLAIN... } – Jan 19, 3:02 AM
- New Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God (274)
{ Jesus just exhumed himself of his future karma while in the body and soulfully sought his father on the cross,... } – Dec 13, 4:54 AM
- Testable Hypothesis for Intelligent Design, Part 1 (82)
- Talking Purpose interview with Michelle Vandepas (2)
{ Perry I loved having you on the show and the opportunity to ask questions. I've been thinking and wondering about... } – Jul 01, 5:39 PM
- Why the Big Bang was the most precisely planned event in all of history (312)
{ Not Neccessarily ?. First of all its highly unlikely for a multivere to exist but that does not mean that... } – Apr 28, 11:48 AM
- Origin of life debate, the English Way (35)
{ I would like to say if you believe that nature is an expression of infinite super intelligent being of whom... } – Apr 18, 9:10 AM
{ Hey Perry, I listen to the debate and it kinda had a taste of stalemate but you with more pieces... } – Mar 19, 1:09 PM
- Are the mutations that drive evolution random? (5)
Richard- Well…Today’s link to the Sept 2008 issue of THE MONTHLY RECORD of The Free Church of Scotland required a lot more effort than the “Bread of Heaven – Wales Forever” YouTube link in Your October 26th post. YIKES–There’s A Lot Here…I’d like to comment on just a bit of it…
This issue has the subtitle…
“BUILDING FOR JESUS”
…under the composite image of (presumably) a portion of a workman’s body–his left shoulder, arm, hand and hip–dressed in workman’s heavy, protective clothing and cradling with his arm and holding in his hand a yellow hardhat while standing before an old brick wall that’s been partly broken down at its upper levels–yet–at its lower levels it remains standing…with blueprints for new construction seen in the open gap of the missing portion of the wall–that just so happen to place an epaulet-type image at the top of the left arm…suggesting a glider’s wing…while down–nearer the cuff of the jacket sleeve there are two snaps–the snap stud for the snugger setting is unsnapped and a strap with the snap socket-ring has been snapped onto the stud further out for a looser and more open cuff. The two circular images of the snaps are “mirrored” in the blueprints–tho’ the blueprints show nearly identical circular drawings (that appear to suggest propellers in motion &/or steering wheels) while the snaps–of course–more prominently feature their complementary parts. Also shown in the blueprint–above the circular images & set closer together are two rectangular screen-type images. They don’t sit “flat” above the circular images but each of their inside corners have been tilted up about 45 degrees and appear that they would “kiss” were it not for a firm double wall drawn between them. All together…this little corner of the composite resembles the top portion of a robot’s head with a view to some of the robot’s “brains” located above the “eyes” and behind the “forehead” area. I could go on but I’m sure that You already “Get” the idea that…
I. The Old Equation STILL Holds True Today…
A Picture Usually IS “Worth” About 1000 Words–
HOWEVER–
IF Words Are NOT Included AND Required Reading–
THEN Too Many Times–CRITICALLY IMPORTANT INFO GETS OVERLOOKED–Because It Takes Training & Experience & Years of Education To Read All The Important Details Contained In The Images That We Are Shown…
So–
While We Can NOT Be Completely Confident of 100% Successful Communication–EVER…
We REALLY Can NOT Be Confident As To What–IF ANYTHING–IS Being Communicated By Images…UNTIL & UNLESS We Put Down IN WRITING What We Think IS Being Shown…And Share BOTH The Images & The Written Report For Review & Questioning & Additions / Corrections…
II. “BUILDING FOR JESUS” has MANY LEVELS of MEANING…
For Example…
It has the “BRICKS & MORTAR” LEVEL of MEANING…
As Well As…
Having The “Well Designed and Constructed Protective Work Clothes & Hardhat” Level of Meaning…
ETC…Etc…Etc…
III. The “Bottom Lines” of the “Meditation Moment” are well stated…
“Our buildings must be functional, practical, well maintained, reflecting the Glory of the God we profess to serve and most of all they must be used. They are there to serve the people of God, not us to serve them. They are the building – we are the Church, the sanctuary, the living stones.”
THIS Statement Concerning “Church Buildings” Should Be FURTHER Understood On Multiple Levels & Dimensions…
IF “We Are The Church”…
THEN Our Bodies & Minds Should ALSO Be Built In Ways & By Means That Are “Functional, Practical, Well Maintained” & PROPERLY EMPLOYED [My paraphrase].
And…
Just As We Take Care To Construct Clothing To Be Comfortable & Durable & Well-Designed and Fitted To The Needs of The Work AND The Workers…
Let us not forget that–
In addition to being “Living Stones”–the Gospel ALSO gives us the image of being “Christ’s Garment”…conforming closely to the Body of Christ…having long fibers gathered & woven together with properties that are softer and far more flexible than the properties normally associated with building stone…and then–cut off at a certain length to suit the particular clothing need…
This–AND FAITH–Were the sources of healing for the woman who’d suffered over a decade of hemorrhaging…
And for 2000 years up thru & including today–
Those With Eyes To See…
DO SEE This Image–
Still Alive & At Work–
All Over The World…even in places normally considered to be the “GOD Forsaken & otherwise neglected corners”…like the Romans–NO DOUBT–considered the regions in & around Galilee to be…
Ain’t that right–Pilate ??
Oops – my bad. The link was to a magazine, not just the cover. I should have said that you were supposed to scroll down to an article about my conversion.
Under the image you have analyzed, you will see “An Atheist repents.” I wrote the article, but thee editors gave it the title “An Atheist finds Salvation”. (page
Thank you, anyway for that comment.
That was supposed to read ( page 8 )
I saw Your name on that article but decided that–since the link was to the entire issue–I’d “take it from the top”…I’ll get around to it ASAP–I promise…But Day IS Done & NOW I Must Get Dinner To The Table !!
Good morning–Richard- I’ve read Your article and…it brings us Full Circle…as–tho’ it’s been a few weeks now since I listened to Your lecture (and I don’t have time to listen to it again for comparison’s sake) Your Article is Another Telling of This Story…just with the sorts of differences in the details that writing a story…as opposed to telling a story…allows.
In General…
People who are Members of America’s Protestant/Evangelical Circles would say that–Your Story Tells Your “Born Again” Experience…
While To Me…
An Irish-American Catholic who was taught & has prayed the Rosary ON & OFF for over 1/2 a century…Your Story Tells of The Mystery & Revelation That IS YOUR “Glorious Transfiguration”…And–I KNOW THAT–”Putting IT” IN THESE TERMS IS ENOUGH TO MAKE MOST “TRAINED PROTESTANTS/EVANGELICALS” SHIELD THEIR EARS & DUCK & RUN FOR COVER…
When They SHOULDN’T Because–SERIOUSLY DUDES & DUDETTES–ALL of THESE TERMS ARE “Biblical” !!
We’re All Different AND We’re All Here…
My “Born Again/Transfiguration” Experience That Happened To Me In March of 2007 IS Quite Different IN ITS Many Details of Revelation…Tho’ The…”Lights came on…and in an instant everything became three-dimensional and Technicolor!”…portion of My Personal “Over The Rainbow” Experience WAS Quite Similar To Yours…as it was to “Dorothy’s” of “The Wizard of Oz” Movie.
After All…
We’re Different People…
Who…Tho’ We’ve Shared Life On This Planet During Approximately The Same Decades–Our Experiences–Similar IN The Broad Outlines of The Principles of Life–Have ALL Been Different–
IN Their Details & IN The Particular Steps That We’ve Taken & Encounters That We’ve Had & Made Along Our Individual Paths…
However–
As Perry Marshall Explained–I Think–SO WELL In The “If You Can Read This, I Can Prove God Exists” Portion of THIS Website–Cosmicfingerprints…
We Are–
EACH & EVERY ONE of US–
Sourced FROM & OF GOD…
As HuMan Beings…
We Are “GOD Antennae”…
Who–When Struck–As You Were In 2008…
Become “GOD Tuning Forks”…
Sending Out Our Vibrations of Truth–
As Best As We Are Able–
AND AS BEST AS LIFE SHAPED & TRAINED & PREPARED US TO DO…
Back To The “We’re All Different & We’re All Here” Statement…
Some of US Preach…
Some of US Teach By Deeds More Than Words…
Some of US Work To Feed Bodies…
Some of US Work To Feed Minds…
Some of US Make A Joyful Noise…
And Some of US Sing The Bluez…
And ALL of US Do Some of THIS…
At Different Ages & Stages & Times IN Our Lives…
Because As Living Beings–
We Are NOT “A Cog in a Greater Machine”…
Even IF We “feel like one”…
We ARE Greater “Living Machines”–
COMPOSED of Greater “Living Machines”–
And We ARE WITHIN & MEMBERS of Greater “Living Machines”–
Whether We “Get” IT…or NOT…
And Since GOD IS–REALLY–ALL THERE IS…
Eventually…
We Will ALL “Get” To Where We Are Supposed To Be…
Tho’ NOT Everybody Will “Get” IT…
That IS…Get to “see the kingdom of God” While They Are Still Living In The Body IN THIS WORLD…
And So–
Your Honest & Honorable Search For Truth Has Been PROFOUNDLY REWARDED…and You are no longer “condemned” to a life limited to the world view ENFORCED by the thought police over at the Richard Dawkins Forum/Discussion groups…
And I Doubt That THIS NEW SPIRIT That You’ve Received Will EVER Be Lost or Taken From You Again…
Nor Mine…
Even IF “The World” Does “Call IT Crazy” & Try To Prescribe IT Any of Its Cornucopia of Psycho/Bio-Active Drugs That Net Out Depressive Effects As A Means To Get IT To…
Sit DOWN…
Settle DOWN…
AND SHUT UP !!!
MCBLANC : thank you that that kind advice.
“Sit DOWN…
Settle DOWN…
AND SHUT UP !!!”
I’ll try, but I don’t think I could manage it.
If I were to tell my story again, it would be even MORE different today.
Discovered God’s love in 2008;
Was drawn (though astonishing circumstances) to start investigating the Roman Catholic Church in 2009.
Welcomed into the RC Church on June 25th, 2011.
The adventure continues.
(Hey, Marie, what’s with all the upper case letters?)
Richard- I think You misunderstood Me…
MUCH LIKE YOU–
Upsetting the proverbial “Apple Carts” within the context of the Dawkins Forum & Discussions…
IN 2007–
I was working My Utmost to bring as Honest & Honorable a Full-Court-Press of An Effort to bear in order to achieve the most helpful & healthful resolutions to Multiple System Disorders found at The Heart & Soul of the Local Politics of the City where My Family had most recently moved to…Knowing that These Local Issues were–REALLY–The same ol’ same ol’ Political Battles that I’d watched being waged All Over Our Nation since My youth…
LIKE YOU–
I was basically told to:
Sit DOWN
Settle DOWN
AND SHUT UP !!!
…By POWERFUL Opponents…
Only–Unlike You…
Since My Battles were NOT waged in an Online Discussion Format–But UP Close & IN Person–I had to face the wide variety of ways & means…To Discredit & Knock Out Any Challenger(s) To Corrupt Economic Systems That Have GREATLY ENRICHED A FEW…Buttered The Bread of Many…while impoverishing many-many more who’re such disenfranchised members of the community that the SocioEconomic Distance between them & The Local Movers & Shakers allow The Top to be “conveniently & politically-correctly clueless” about the part They Play in Making Their Profits Off of The “Planned Misery” of Those At “the bottom” of The Economic System.
The “ways & means” to shut Me up & out of Local Politics that I had to square with started at the “subtle & friendly” levels…but progressed–in fairly short order to–
Pronounced–
Pointed–
Physical–
Financial & Finally…
Pharmaceutical.
Fortunately…
There Were MANY More Courageous Neighbors Who Did As Much–IF NOT MORE–To Help & Support The Work That I Was Attempting To Push Thru–Than There Were Those IN Opposition To IT…So We WERE Able To…
LITERALLY & Figuratively–
Turn The Tide…
And Later…
MOST of Those Who’d Initially Opposed Our Work…Came Around…As Usually Happens When People of Good Will Disagree But Stay Engaged With Each Other In…More or less…Respectful Discourse Until Reaching–Positive Resolution.
WHAT HELPED US IMMEASURABLY WAS Today’s Computer-Enhanced & Internet-Connected Word Processing…
1) Once I got to the stage where I stopped talking so much and started writing letters to Local & State & Federal Leaders…Then the simple fact that “My Apparent Volume” had been turned waaaaay down…served to placate the most immediate opposition…(Who–IN a “Left-Handed” sense…was actually Protecting Me by mounting manageable-yet-Publicly Displayed Opposition…which held EVEN WORSE OPPOSITION At Bay…Convincing Them That I Was Already Being Sufficiently Subdued)…
And 2) The Profoundly Accelerated & Broadcast Communication Potential That’s Available To…ordinary individuals such as Thee & Me & Almost Everybody Else On The Planet…was NOT “appreciated” by the Local Team of “Good Ol’ Boyz” who were–Frankly–blindsided by how much Political ORGANIZATION occurred so quickly that–IN Previous Generations–Could NOT Have Happened Without Their Knowledge & Authorization…
So–
Deeds Were Done BEFORE The Opponents Who–NO DOUBT–Would’ve Tried To “Kill IT” Before They Really Understood WHAT “IT” Was…Could Organize Their Efforts…
IT IS A NEW World–Baby.
P.S.
Welcome to the RC Church…IT’S BIG–REALLY BIG–AND THERE’S ALWAYS PLENTY of ROOM FOR MORE…If You Don’t Mind Being A Little “Cozy” IN The Pews–ESPECIALLY@Christmas & Easter…
P.P.S.
As for all the Upper Case Letters in My writing…
It’s a “Throw Back” to all the years that I taught Junior High Science & Math…And–As A Teacher of The 11-14 Year Old Mind–One MUST Employ & Bend To The Task EVERY MEANS of Communication AVAILABLE To Get & Hold Their Attention…
Any & All of My Hand-Written Info & Directions Made Use of Different Lettering Fonts & Styles & Colors…etc. I found that The Most Effective Writing Styles For Communicating With Junior High Kiddos’–ARE A LOT LIKE THOSE EMPLOYED BY ADVERTISING COPY WRITERS.
Of course…
The formats available for posting online comments are usually Severely Limited as to the options for font styles, sizes, BOLD/Italics & colors… Pretty Much–All that we can do is the written equivalent to “droning”–BORING…
So—
In addition to WHAT I Write…I make maximal use of what’s offered for How I Write–utilizing capitalization & punctuation & spacing—In Order To Better Enunciate My Meaning…As Well As To Signal To My Reader(s) When I Intend My Remarks At a…pedestrian or Elevated or COSMIC Level of Interpretation…Etc.
I Know THIS Annoys MANY People…The Junior High School Level Mind IS WORLD FAMOUS For THAT !!
@mcblanc
I haven’t read all the previous posts, so I may not be the first to say this, but your posts read like incoherent gibberish. Writing in capitals, capitalising every first letter, the ‘&’ and general rambling make it hard to understand or get to the point you are trying to make. Just let the facts do the talking. If you have some.
Thank You For THIS Confirmation.
No One PAYS Me To Teach Anymore…So I’m Under NO Contractual Obligation To Try To “Reach” YOU. My writing style is a conversational style…I don’t want You to “read” the words as much as I hope that You…slow down and “hear” the words…
This “Excess” of Capitalizing IS A Deliberate Attempt To Prevent Readers From Doing What They USUALLY Do–which amounts to skimming the material…IN Order To Give The Mind a bit More Time To “See” Different Levels & Dimensions of Meaning Contained Within The “ordinary” Words Written.
Analogously…
I write in a “Jazz” style AND You criticize it for NOT being like “Bach”…Oh well.
“Just let the facts do the talking”…??
I HAVE–
And BECAUSE The Facts That I’ve Written Speak VOLUMES of “Inconvenient Truth” For Your…et al…POV–
At THIS Point IN The Discussion–
You’re trying to take what amounts to a coward’s way out…
You Advance NO Further Points of Your Own…
You Make NO Concessions…
You Ignore WHAT’S Been Presented–
You Focus ONLY On HOW It’s Been Presented…
Which IS Exactly WHAT We’ve All Come To Expect From The Superficial-But-Formerly-”Stylish” Thinking & M.O.’s of The “Politically Correct” Universe–That’s NOW–
Yesterday’s News.
To mcblanc,
mcblanc said:
You Focus ONLY On HOW It’s Been Presented…
samd said:
ExAcTlY rIgHt. BuT iT GoEs AgAiNsT yOu. YoU sHoUlD wRiTe In a MaNnEr WhIcH iS eAsY tO rEaD. If I wRiTe LiKe tHiS
rO rEhTaR sIhT?(Or rather this?)
- iS iT eAsY fOr YoUr EyE oR eAsY tO fOlLoW?
tHe WhOlE fOcUs ThEn…
“Is To DeCiPhEr” WhAt YoU aRe SaYiNg
… rAtHeR tHaN fOcUs On “WhAt YoU aRe SaYiNg”
Which is easier to convey the point?
samd- YoU mAkE yOuR pOiNtS–
–yAw RuOy Ni *
And I’ll Make My Points…
IN MINE.
* IF You’re going to do “Mirror Writing”—
THEN DO “gnitirW rorriM”…
(At least–As best as the keyboard allows)
Oh–Never Mind…
It IS Better That You Just Made A TOTAL Hash of Your Writing…
It’s a far more accurate reflection of HOW You argued…
Than anything I could’ve posted–Myself.
P.S.
You were The One Who wrote…back on October 18th…that “Live and let live” is a universal principle…”that does not come from any religious belief”…
YET–IN Practice…
All it takes are a few Extra-Capitals Letters to flip ON Your “Bi-Polar Response System”…
I’d work a little harder in the “Practice What You Preach–Dept”…If I Were You.
You are a genius you know! You have invented a new meaning of the word “bi-polar”. You are sooo proud that you could not take the hint from so many posts that your capitalization is hurting others. As you probably already have seen… sometimes teachers or elders have to be a little blunt to teach some stubborn kids.
P.P.S.
“Live and let live”…hmmm…Rudyard Kipling’s “The Jungle Book” and “Just So Stories” are FULL of Tales that Make Clear the numerous & various contradictions to THIS “glib phrase”…
“Live and let live” is a paraphrase of something Kipling would’ve had a cobra say to a mongoose…
btw…If You have never read “Rikki-Tikki-Tavi”…or had it read to You—Not Only Do I Recommend IT HIGHLY…I am forever in My 5th Grade Teacher’s—Miss Curtis’—Debt For Having Read IT (over the course of a few installments) To Me & My Class…during those sleepy minutes that follow lunchtime.
Yes! I know these cobras! They are so stubborn, you know, they do not listen. It is a high time to catch these and take their venom out so they can live peacefully with the mongoose!
JP – try reading mcblanc’s posts here, and not just in your email alert. She’s writing in a way that email formatting can’t handle, which gives you all the ‘&’s.
Though I do agree that her obsession with upper case letters does make reading her posts, er, a little irksome.
LOL…Think of IT This Way–My writing style’s the online post functional equivalent to “Wearing A Hairshirt”…
; )
P.S.
Richard- The Grateful Dead had…among Their Vast Manifest & Catalogs of Work…another beautiful telling of these Deep Experiences & Revelations such as We have been discussing here…
“Attics of My Life”
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia
In the attics of my life
Full of cloudy dreams unreal
Full of tastes no tongue can know
And lights no eye can see
When there was no ear to hear
You sang to me
I have spent my life
Seeking all that’s still unsung
Bent my ear to hear the tune
And closed my eyes to see
When there were no strings to play
You played to me
In the book of love’s own dream
Where all the print is blood
Where all the pages are my days
And all my lights grow old
When I had no wings to fly
You flew to me
You
flew
to me
In the secret space of dreams
Where I dreaming lay amazed
When the secrets all are told
And the petals all unfold
When there was no dream of mine
You dreamed of me
http://artsites.ucsc.edu/GDead/agdl/atti.html
And here’s a YouTube link…
Sorry about the poor sound quality…at least…The Lights Speak Articulately and…all things considered…I suppose it is More Meaningful to have this song sung…slowly…and deliberately…in the midst of a host of Many Others’ voices…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19pU9WKJpg&feature=related
Mary,
I am grateful to be alive.
I’m a Grateful Living.
Could I ask you, as a personal favour, to type normally, using the accepted rules of capitalization? It has become far too tiresome trying to adapt to your quirky, self-centred ways.
If you continue to use your own, private style, you should know that as far as I am concerned, you will be talking to yourself.
I’m sorry to have to come to this point, but you should recognise that people post in a forum in order to communicate – a difficult task in itself, without making things worse.
Gae siarad saesneg, oes gwelwch yn dda? Diolch yn fawr.
Hwyl!
Mary,
I agree. We’ve had this conversation before elsewhere. The capitalization makes everything you write difficult and irritating to read. I speak for pretty much everybody when I say this.
Perry
OK Guyz–I can take a hint:
1. Yes–Perry–We have had “the talk” before and I would think that as a professional sound engineer that you would understand my need…as an amateur violinist who’s played on many stages since the age of 12 (usually surrounded by an orchestra)…to employ various means to adjust the color, pitch, volume and pace of my words and readers’ “mental hearing” of my words…and not simply intone with the sameness of sound as if this is a “plainsong only” planet.
2. Richard–I’m a member of the “Grateful Living”–too–as were the members of the Grateful Dead. After many years of watching and listening to this group and wondering what they meant by this oxymoron of a band name…I finally realized that they meant this in the Christlike sense of having died to self…And dying to self and being reborn in Christ is a gift for which anyone is eternally grateful.
See? I can write with no more that my “fair share” of capitals…although–seriously–when it comes to “the accepted rules of capitalization”…I never got the memo asking me if these rules were acceptable or not. I would like it to be noted for the record that in no way does my writing today in this post in a manner that more closely adheres to “the accepted rules of capitalization” mean to imply that I now accept them….Tho’ I do hope that this is less of a headache for y’all to read.
3. And now I must hit the road…so to speak…destination: OP IL to visit with a cousin who’s flown in from SF CA. Maybe I’ll see you (Planet Perry Beings) somewhere around the corner…and then again–maybe not…because I know how very busy you all are.
Adios !!
Mary,
Thanks for writing in normal case. Much easier to read.
Here’s god:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ol6jQMkwE
Even he must be part of it all.
Dear, deluded Fred Hahn – you are SO 1968!
This is the text superimposed on almost psychedelic images:
YOU ARE GOD
U CONTROL UR UNIVERSE
WAKE UP
THE UNIVERSE IS THE MACROCOSM
AND YOU ARE THE MICROCOSM
OF THE UNIVERSE WITHIN
At this point we see a primitive diagram of a cross-section of the brain, with the intralaminar nucleus in the thalamus highlighted. Wow! Pretty pictures, woo-woo music AND a swift course on the neuroscience of consciousness.
Now that the problem of consciousness has been solved, the text continues:
WAKE UP TO YOUR POTENTIAL
CONTROL YOUR UNIVERSE.
Don’t we just love that kind of message? I am the centre. I can control. There is a word for that – NARCISSISTIANITY. Come worship at the temple of ME.
Oh dear – the lengths to which some folks will go to justify egocentrism.
Thank you for that moment of nostalgia, Fred. Many of us were experimenting with this kind of stuff in the sixties. Then we grew up and became adults.
Christ said, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.”
“Love your neighbour….”
Receiving Christ’s gracious love inevitably turns our attention outwards – towards others.
Fred’s video clip urges me to concentrate on ME. Do you see the difference?
Many people have experimented with believing in supernatural beings with powers like Superman as their source of strength and salvation – long before the 1960′s.
Many of us dropped that nonsense, grew up and became actual adults, rather than remaining innocent children in larger bodies who still believe in beings like Santa Claus.
ME is all you have.
Go read some Ayn Rand. When you are truly selfish, as opposed to selfless, the world works wonderfully.
FredHahn:
YOU are all I have?
Now that makes me feel really nervous.
But at least you have made yourself clear, Fred: “When you are truly selfish, as opposed to selfless, the world works wonderfully.” I suppose that’s your definition of of somebody who “grew up and became actual adults.”
It also explains why you are so frightened of this: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Got it.
No Rich, I don’t think you get it at all.
What Jesus meant by that statement was: “Be happy now. Rejoice in life for its own sake.”
The kingdom of “heaven” is happiness here on Earth.
FredHahn : This is becoming interesting indeed. A non-Christian explaining the true meaning of the words of Christ.
Why not? This is most generous of you.
Do you think we should, perhaps, rename The Lord’s Prayer? Something like The Intralaminar Nucleus Activator?
-
“The kingdom of “heaven” is happiness here on Earth.” I think I had better get the next plane to Africa to tell the starving millions, “Be happy! Rejoice in life for its own sake.Get over yourselves!”
I am certainly tempted to try it on the IRS.
Do you have any more gems where that came from? Perhaps you could treat us to your personal exegetics concerning, ““Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.” According to you, this would be blatant blasphemy, since my SELF is God, and Christ requires us to deny our SELVES.
But let me not put words into your mouth. Please enlighten us.
You REALLY don’t get it do you?
No I think we should rename the Lord’s prayer the “How to scare the shit out of a child in three seconds” prayer.
Better than getting on a plane to tell the starving millions, you might do better getting on your knees and reminding your god about them. He seems to have forgotten.
FredHahn,
I’m probably having a senior moment but I sort of wanted to apologize to you.
You see, you have made a couple of comments that represent perhaps the very worst in on-line debates. “You REALLY don’t get it do you ?”
You say that because you believe that you HAVE got it. In fact, that arrogant, repulsive attitude is probably shared by around 100% of all on-line debaters.
Your peevish, petulant exasperation with anybody who doesn’t see things your way is probably experienced by everybody expressing an opinion or a point of view. You can not imagine any good reason for another person to fail to see what is obvious to you. And I do believe that you are sincere. I can imagine you saying to yourself, “Why can’t he see that ?” To you, it is just plain evident. Maybe you think that if you keep making assertions, the rest of us will come to see things the way you do. At the same time, deep inside of you, burning slowly, is the deep conviction we’re never going to change. When this feeling of futility overwhelms you, you stop trying to convince and you lash out. In so doing, it is not your target victim who is demeaned. It is you.
I apologize for responding to you , because when I was doing snide, I was doing exactly the same thing as you.
We ALL think that we have “got it”.
After that, we all have our personal reasons for wanting to persuade others to “get it” our way.
Often, the best we can do is for the two parties to temporarily abandon their positions and meet on neutral ground. It gets better if, when we meet there, we can say to each other, “There is so much I do not know, and there is so much I can learn from you.”
But we are all so scared of quitting our comfort zones, aren’t we? Particularly when we know we are right. When it’s obvious. When it’s so obvious to us that if the other guy doesn’t agree with me there is clearly something very wrong going on.
I doubt that posting this will change anything. Rather like when I piss in the ocean I don’t think I’m posing a serious threat to the ecology of the planet.
Right or wrong.
Good or bad.
Black or white.
Each so clearly the opposite of the other, there would seem to be no meeting place possible.
This is what is unique about Christianity. Christ invited us all to quit our comfort zones. Not in order to move into the other guy’s comfort zone, but for us both to meet in Him.
Not for Him to say, “Well done thou good and faithful servant, you sure beat the hell out of that atheist.”
This “third place” is a place to be surprised by joy. Discovering joy is to discover that joy does not consist in being right. It consists in loving and being loved.
“We an love because He loved us first.” Knwoing that we are loved opens the floodgates of our love to others. Even to the FredHahns and Richard Morgans of this world.
Often FredHahn comes across as a real creep. Fortunately, that is not the only thing we have in common.
I’m peevish and petulant? Well, I guess it’s good to stay young at heart.
Here’s what I know I have – an uncanny inability to believe in ghosts, goblins and demons and other things that are clearly not real. How you and others have managed to convince yourselves that these entities are as real as we are is truly a feat of tremendous mental power. I commend you.
I also know that folks like Jesus and the rest of the many, many “prophets” that the world has produced were humans with insightful things to say that years later, many reinterpreted or misinterpreted to mean something else – for better or for worse.
I won’t say much about what you said RE: my commenting “attitude” since you’re far worse than I am. When you point your finger at someone, there are three more pointing at yourself.
And many people DO see things the way I do, meaning, many people DO see and accept reality as it truly is rather than as they wish it to be.
The religious are locked into a particular fantasy world much like innocent children who have imaginary friends.
And its natural for humans to create imaginary scenarios because our human minds always seek to fill in the unknown gaps in order to better understanding our world for survival/etc. So what does a conscious, uneducated being from 100,000 years ago make of a tornado? An earthquake? Someone who has a hormonal imbalance or a parasitic infection who acts like he’s possessed by a demon?
Most of us have outgrown this stuff.
I heard a priest yesterday at a wake say “Our real home is in heaven.” Really? So what the heck are we doing here? Why did god put us here if our real home is heaven? What’s with the Earth game? What are we here for? To learn lessons? Why? when we die we become perfect souls no matter what with no brains.
If heaven is so much better than here, why don’t all the religious kill themselves now to expedite the journey? What are you all waiting for?
Or is it that if you do kill yourself, you go to hell because murder is a sin. How clever!
Fred said : “So what does a conscious, uneducated being from 100,000 years ago make of a tornado?”
My answer – I’ve no idea. If you know, Fred, then you’ll be in line for a Nobel prize, because nobody else knows what primitive folks made of tornadoes 100,000 years ago.
Fred said : “When you point your finger at someone, there are three more pointing at yourself.”
I agree totally. And you don’t know the half of it.
I loved your unintentional pun :
“perfect souls no matter what with no brains.”
Keep them coming, Fred!
Richard,
Can you please explain what is meant by: “Christ requires us to deny our SELVES” ?
Thanks
samd: One way you can look at this is that there are 2 parts to your consciousness. The higher part (which is intimately in relationship with God) – your Spirit – the Truth, and the lower part (which is the self referred to in this statement) – your personality self, your ego – which is essentially illusory. To “deny” yourself is to deny your egoic identity – the part that exists in the world – in favor of your Spirit.
bernadh : I just LOVE your comment. It is the most delightful piece of New-Age gobbledegook I have read in this discussion.
Priceless!
Keep them coming. This discussion needed to lighten up a bit.
Richard: “New-Age gobbledegook”? That’s a little dismissive, especially when you consider that not only eastern philosophical tradition – but also western philosophy are both essentially based on this principle.
Do you think your argumentative stance on this forum may have jaded your perspective Richard?
From your facetious response you seem to be have cornered yourself into a permanent attack/defense mode of thinking.
I thought Bernard’s statement made sense.
Bernard and Perry :
“One way you can look at this is that there are 2 parts to your consciousness.”
Here you announce that you are about to talk about consciousness. Are you able to give a definition of consciousness? I certainly couldn’t. Then you suggest that there 2 parts. Why only two? And why “parts”? Are they separate parts? Do they overlap? Do they interact? This is nice-sounding but completely vacuous rambling.
“The higher part (which is intimately in relationship with God) – your Spirit – the Truth,”
Higher in what sense? Higher than what? How can you deduce that other parts are not in relationship with God? What is the basis for all this?
“and the lower part (which is the self referred to in this statement) – your personality self, your ego – which is essentially illusory.”
OK. Now we are getting to the crux of the question. Lower in what sense? If it’s my personality self (sic) you are suggesting that it is not in relationship with God. But then you say it is an illusion.
WHO IS HAVING THE ILLUSION? Which of the two parts is creating an illusion? And which part is being deluded? There must be a third part to have the illusion of the second part. Unless it’s the higher part, intimately in relationship with God.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. It is the main gobbledegook of this post. It’s worse than MATRIX. (Read Daniel Dennett’s early essay, “Where am I”? It’s fun!)
To “deny” yourself is to deny your egoic (sic) identity – the part that exists in the world – in favor of your Spirit.
Which part of me can do the denying? Certainly not the first part, because it is in relationship with God. Certainly not the second part because it doesn’t exist, being only an illusion.
Now if my “egoic identity” exists in the world, where on earth does the first part exist?
You have broken down my consciousness into two parts without telling me which part is really me. Then you give an explanation which necessarily requires a third part to react (be deluded, do the denying) to the first two.
Whether I am lusting after my neighbour’s wife, wanting to help feed the beggars in the streets of Toulouse, or setting aside a special moment to praise God – it’s all me. My identity is all of that.
I would venture an uninformed and vague explanation of the “denying self” imperative. I would suggest that it is becoming aware of selfish desires that do not glorify God, or show love to my neighbour, and making the choice of refusing to satisfy those desires – by the grace of God. Oh – and frequently failing to make the right choice. I am open to being corrected by wiser, more knowledgeable Biblical scholars.
Bernard’s post remains gobbledegook.
If you want to get a better understanding of your misconceptions and BAD use of language, take a few minutes to try the exercise of solving this conundrum. You will rapidly see the problem.
When I say, “I love myself” I am using a simple, correct, grammatical structure.
Subject – verb – object.
Unfortunately, this implies that “I” and “myself” are separate entities. Without evoking a split personality, try to find the simple explanation. Then come back to me. (Hint: linguistic short-hand.)
Let me just say that it is not my intent to articulate everything Bernard has said, he’s more than capable of that I’m sure. I just want to say that I agree with the Christian idea that Paul talked about in Romans 7, of a war going on between my higher spiritual self and my lower lizard-brain self. And yes there is this certain resemblance to split personality disorder. The most obvious symptom of this is the double standard we all tend to apply to other people vs. ourselves.
Perry – it is interesting that you refer to the “lizard-brain self” – as if it were a separate part of you. However, I am wondering if you were not, in fact, referring to the limbic system rather than the reptilian part of the brain. (NB – part of the “brain”, not part of my “self”).
The limbic system is considered the seat of our emotions, among many other things that can really mess us up. Generally we let the lizard get on with doing stuff like controlling heart rate, breathing, temperature etc. In fact your allusion to double standards would seem to confirm that you are talking about the limbic system.
All this is assuming you are using “lizard” as an image for “reptilian”.
However all this business of “higher” and “lower” reminds me of Richard Dawkins talking about “higher brain functions” without ever saying why or how they are higher.
I think we are running the risk of confusing “brain” (with its many “parts”) and “self”.
That I experience many conflicting urges is a fact. Explaining why I yield to some and resist others does NOT mean that my SELF has parts. The “war” that Paul is talking about is the inner conflicts we have to deal with based upon perceived constraints (external) and needs and desires (internal).
If parts of you can be identified as being separate entities, then it’s time to call in the exorcist or the psychiatrist.
Paul also talks about a another battle or struggle when he tells the Ephesians, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.” A very different ball game, I’m sure you’ll agree.
Islam has has a very evocative image for these two levels of conflict. It talks about two jihads (struggles) – the Lesser and the Greater. The one that has been making all the headlines is, in fact the lesser jihad. The greater jihad “is conducted on the spiritual front, for it is our struggle with our inner world and carnal soul”.
When you are saved, there is never any question of just bits of you being saved…as far as I am aware. (Though my belly has a distinctly unregenerate shape these last few years!)
I was so incensed with Bernard’s post for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Perry, you know how I hate unclear and muddy use of language. It’s “noise”, and we all know where noise gets us.
Secondly it leads us into the “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” dilemma which is often used as an escape clause for lazy Christians. “Don’t blame ME, it was the lizard in me that did it.” At which guard/watchman does the buck stop?
Paul also says “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, (external, social constraints) but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
Not bits of your mind.
And please don’t ask me to go down the “heart, mind and soul” path. I’m not smart enough to handle that one. Yet.
Rant over.
Richard, Perry,
Firstly thank you Perry for your validation.
Richard, you are obviously very skilled in language and argument. Given your profession I wouldn’t expect any less. You argue logic, semantics & definitions eloquently and I admit that my verbal skills aren’t as highly developed as yours. You aren’t the first to point out my habit of making sweeping generalisations and my clumsy attempts at defining terms. For this I apologise.
My original statement was predicated with the phrase: “One way you could look at this..”. I was offering a point of view, a perspective, an option. I wasn’t attempting to be definitive. I am very much aware of the limitations of language (Especially the way I use it!). I can’t be absolutist about anything I say. The abstract nature of subject matter itself eludes strict, un-ambiguous definition. To define is to make finite, to limit. How can you define the infinite (God, Love, Truth, Eternity etc)? Jesus, himself, used metaphors and analogies in his parables in order to make his point. It’s also the responsibility of the listener/reader/student to interpret what he meant. He had no control over that. He would make a point but it could be lost depending on the student’s ability (and choice) to comprehend and appreciate the value of his instruction.
I deliberately try to avoid being pedantic about what I say. I’m more interested in the overall meaning being conveyed. I find that the more pedantic I become the more I lose sight of the essence & meaning (and thus the helpfulness) of the message.
RIchard, I find your dismissiveness objectionable. It seems like you have written me off as just another “new-age” flake. It’d be like me writing you and Perry off as just bible-thumping fundamentalist Christians. THe reason I’m attracted to this forum is that I appreciate Perry’s intelligence & open-mindedness to question his faith and beliefs publicly. It’s a refreshing change from the rubbish in other forums discussing religion, spirituality & science.
Bernard : I’m going to be honest with you here. You said ” “One way you could look at this..”
I’m sorry – I just glossed over those words and launched into the body of your post. When I realized this, it was too late. I had already clicked on SUBMIT COMMENT.
In my defense, I will say that I have discovered over the years that imprecise language can be a source of so much misunderstanding and conflict that I consider it to be one of the first things to get right.
I admit going into overkill. Please forgive me for that.
You will notice that I have let FredHahn get away with much worse than that. (I get him on other stuff.) That’s because Fred doesn’t think before typing, so one doesn’t really need to take him seriously. I have replied to his posts mostly for the fun of maintaining a dialogue but most of the time it’s more like shadow boxing.
Thank you for calling me to order over my attitude. I still stand behind what I said, but certainly not the WAY I said it.
Richard:
Perhaps a clarification of terms would help here.
Consciousness: By this I’m speaking of the mind – in it’s broadest sense. It includes all cognitive functioning, all psychological phenomena (including intellectual/rational, instinctive, emotional (moods, attitudes, feelings), and conscience) plus all transcendant thought (experienced in times of prayer, meditation etc). Since consciousness is non-material and intangible it defies definition in a language based on materialistic terms. However, there are definitely aspects or characteristics of the mind we all at some time have experienced. There is a transcendant aspect of mind, that transcends the conditioning & beliefs we experience from our environment. This aspect of mind/cosciousness I refer to as Spirit. The other aspect, the aspect we are most acquanited with – our normal waking experience – is what I refer to as ego. The ego, at it’s source is our sense of personal identity.
We could also include a third aspect, the aspect of consciousness that makes a choice between ego & Spirit. This could be defined as the will. It is the part of our minds that provides us with self-awareness and the power to choose.
Higher & Lower: Theae are essentially misnomers. Yet in general usage they refer to perspective. Having a higher perspective enables one to see the wood for the trees. It doesn’t “sweat the small stuff” because it recognises that it’s ALL samll stuff.
Denying the Self: This is referring to the decision-making part of our mind choosing not to listen to the ego in preference to the Spirit. The more we choose to do this on a moment-by-moment, day-to-day basis the more we grow & integrate the higher state of consciousness and live and act out of it.
samd- A very practical and down-to-Earth example of… “what is meant by: Christ requires us to deny ourSELVES”… is–Parenthood.
IF you engage in the interactions, a.k.a., procreation and conceive a new life… which–at its very early stages–IS… just about the size of that proverbial “mustard seed”…
And THEN–Even if this wasn’t a “planned conception”–you “keep the faith” and bring this newly conceived life to birth and give this child the best possible chance(s) to grow to a full adulthood… even if that means that you have to give up your child to others to raise–as the distraught mother in her encounter with King Solomon was willing to do…
OR–As most of the world’s parents… you give over your time and energy and resources FOR YEARS UNTO DECADES to the care and well-being and up-bringing of your child(ren)…
THIS IS… “to deny ourSELVES”…
To deny ourSELVES in order to serve the better interests of our own child(ren) is natural…
To see each and every child in this world as a child of GOD who you have been called to serve the better interests of is to be Christlike.
Is this clearer??
samd : Can I explain what is meant by: “Christ requires us to deny our SELVES”?
No. Not yet. But I’m working on it. Young Christian. OK?
FredHahn, on the other hand, has set himself as a competent interpreter of the words of Christ. Ask him.
What is meant by: “Christ requires us to deny our SELVES?”
It means that selflessness – meaning, not having a fully developed sense of self, means we are not living a full life.
Since we were put here on this planet, it is our duty to live our lives as fully as possible. If we do, we live our lives as best as possible. If everyone did this, we would all be fulfilled.
Why would we be put on this Earth as we are only to be told that what we are is sinful? Nonsense.
Thanks Bernardh, Richard, Perry and Fred,
To reply to this thread, I need to say that my idea was close to what Bernardh said and thanks for that. I liked other posts from Richard, but do not know why it was so difficult for him. I believe, both eastern and western philosphies accepted the duality of mind: conscious/sub-conscious, good/bad, higher/lower, close-to-god/ego-centric etc. Bernardh’s explanation is what I thought I would hear and I agree to it – but in a slightly different way. For me it is not illusory. It is real and it is what distances us from God.
That difference come from Fred’s last sentences which I vigorously believe.
“Why would we be put on this Earth as we are only to be told that what we are is sinful?”
This is exactly my thought. We are not sinful. If we are God’s children, we are his reflections the we are not sinful, we cannot be.
We definitely do sins – but from birth we are as pure as the God Himself/Herself. Look at the faces of a newborn kid – what I see is a reflection of God. I know that is the purest, most sacred thing in the world – not a spec of sin or blemish. Then we grow up and we do mistakes, sins, and make our mirror dirty and the God’s reflection cannot be seen any more.
However at the same time we all have the power, all along, to clean it up.
Selfishness makes it dirty (sorry Fred, I disagree with you here), ego makes it very dirty, lust makes it very very dirty, anger makes it dirty, greed makes it very dirty, looking down upon others makes it dirty, pride makes it dirty, infatuation makes it dirty and all illicit and irresponsible and illegal acts we do make it dirty.
So the ego is very real and all other bad qualities are very real as well.
You all see the effect of all these – the lust, greed, pride in the whole world – and can imagine how nice the whole world would be if we do not have them or less of them. 99.99% of the whole world’s problem come from lust, pride, ego, and greed.
But we can clean it. Knowing or remembering a religious book from the first to last page does not work.
Saying that “I repent” or “I am sorry” and continue with the same mindset does not work.
If you really meant those words, really repent and never do those again, that can be a starter.
Serving others selflessly can clean it. Freeing mind from ego can clean it. Getting rid of greed and lust can clean it.
You can be brilliant orator, debater, scientist or the head priest in the greatest church or temple, but in your mind, if you are not pure, like a child, you are very very far from God or Heaven. That is what I believe.
So yeah, I agree with Bernardh, Perry and Fred in some extent.
Fred said “it is our duty to live our lives as fully as possible.”
a fulfilled reality show producer.
and
“If everyone did this, we would all be fulfilled.”
All of us?
I must be missing something because, you know, in my narrow,prejudiced way, I would not want to live in the same street as
1) a fulfilled cannibal;
2) a fulfilled pedophile;
3) a fulfilled trader;
4) a a fulfilled Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot;
5) a fulfilled serial killer;
6) a fulfilled racist;
7) a fulfilled religious extremist;
Sometimes living my life as fully as possible means emptying yours.
The last time I saw a fulfilled panther, he was full of antelope.
I trust you get my point.
Pedofiles, mass murderers, racists, and other folks of this ilk are NOT living fulfilled lives.
You don’t get that?
Fred said : “Pedofiles, mass murderers, racists, and other folks of this ilk are NOT living fulfilled lives.”
How do you know?
According to which criteria?
Would that be because the rest of us are trying to prevent them from living fulfilled lives? Or are they pedofiles, mass murderers and racists because their lives are unfulfilled?
The attorney for the defense told the judge, “MY client pleads not guilty (to the charge of raping and strangling seven little girls) by reason of an unfulfilled life.”
Are you saying, Fred, that all of us to a greater or lesser extent are living unfulfilled lives? If so, can you suggest what our lives should be filled full of?
From a Christinan point of view I could almost agree with you, though my language would be different and I would have a concrete suggestion to propose. This suggestion would NOT be making a god of myself. Do you recognise this:
“ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (and live unfulfilled lives.)”
” We can love because He loved us first (and filled our lives with love.)”
“You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free (from being unfulfilled.”
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened (and unfulfilled), and I will give you rest.”
Fred, do you honestly believe that we find fulfillment in making gods of ourselves? Where I come from we call that Narcissism, or egocentricity, or existential masturbation.
Christ tells us He is the way, but for Fred, Fred is the way. Wow. What a choice : the Cross or a Kleenex? Deny yourself or get off on yourself?
(For those who are offended by my words, I apologize. Be gentle with me – I am having an unfulfilled hair day.)
How do I know? Because they are what they are. Using your frame of mind, Satan could be a happy and fulfilled soul and I too then can be fulfilled without Jesus or God.
“ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (and live unfulfilled lives.)”
We will always fall short as we are not god. What a dumb thing to say. If god made us this way,he needs to deal with it and get over the glory stuff.
“Fred, do you honestly believe that we find fulfillment in making gods of ourselves?”
Gods don’t exist.
“Where I come from we call that Narcissism, or egocentricity, or existential masturbation.”
Nothing wrong with a healthy and strong sense of ones self.
Your religion requires you to feel guilty for a healthy sense of self. It asks you to believe that you are evil. A sinner. Bad. Unworthy. Lowly.
No thank you very much.
“Christ tells us He is the way, but for Fred, Fred is the way.”
Very self confident of Christ. Especially when long before him, others said they were the way.
Fred’s way is reality. Not believing in supernatural beings that cannot possibly exist as you and other believers suggest they do.
There may indeed be some incredible energies that exist in the bowels of the unknown universe, but it sure ain’t a white haired dude on a throne with his son on his right hand side and angles flitting about.
Awesome Response!
Fred, although I believe in God or some super power, I find you as a very strong person who does not accept anything and everything we are told, and for a good reason. I admire you!
Fred- This is YOUR OPINION about the lives of …I trust… Others. In an “Ayn Rand” world such as You advocate… IF my objective is to pursue my own happiness and self-interest and I DECIDE THAT IS BEST SERVED BY FUELING MY APPETITE(S) for …WHATEVER… THEN–Who are You–Fred–to tell me that I’m NOT living a fulfilled life?
Don’t You get the underlying message of “The Silence of the Lambs”/Hannibal Lecter movies ??
I think you confuse biology with religion.
Well–greyfox–You didn’t make it easy for us to follow your jumps back into the conversation…
THIS comment belongs back in the middle of page 3 where–
In response to Perry’s October 19 at 3:10 pm comments that… “As a follower of Jesus I can pray for healing, and I can go to a doctor. A person who does not follow Jesus can only go to the doctor.”…
You posted on November 13 9:07 pm… “Sounds to me like Perry is hedging his bets. He can pray then go to a Doctor and when his ailment is cured he can claim that prayer did it, Pretty sneaky.”…
Jeez Louise–Dude…
Small wonder why the presence of a Recording Secretary Keeping Accurate Minutes has been Key to HuMan Advancement. Thank Goodness for the Facilitation of Computer-Powered & Enhanced Programming and Programmers and Program Operators.
ANYWHO…
Thank You–greyfox–For putting Your Finger… so to speak… on the point where the threads of Our Differences–MEET…
Confusing… “biology with religion”…
You Advance Division–
1. Here IS The Field of Biology That Studies Life & Living Systems.
AND
2. Over Here IS The Field of Religion That Studies GOD & Spiritual Phenomena.
AND
…”NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET”
While…Those of us with the eyes to see & read & learn about DNA and The Implications of ALL THAT–Understand That GOD Authored Life…So The Fields of Biology & Religion Form–ACTUALLY–That proverbial Seamless Garment.
And here’s the non-dyslexic edition of my comments:
Fred- This is your opinion about the lives of–I trust–others. In an “Ayn Rand” world such as you advocate–if my objective is to pursue my own happiness and self-interest and I decide that is best served by fueling my appetite(s) for–whatever–then who are you, Fred, to tell me that I’m not living a fulfilled life?
Don’t you get the underlying message of “The Silence of the Lambs” and Hannibal Lecter movies?
“Fred- This is your opinion about the lives of–I trust–others. In an “Ayn Rand” world such as you advocate–if my objective is to pursue my own happiness and self-interest and I decide that is best served by fueling my appetite(s) for–whatever–then who are you, Fred, to tell me that I’m not living a fulfilled life?”
You can’t live a fulfilled life by hurting and disrupting other peoples lives. It is simply not possible and any mental health professional can explain it to you.
Heinous actions cause those who engage in these activities to be outcasts, hunted, they have to live in fear and hide. This is not living a fulfilled life.
And why even bring this up? You know the answer. Don’t say things just to argue a point that you know very well is pointless.
Now, if you want to dedicate your life to chess, football, etc., this does not hurt or damage anyone. You don’t have to live in hiding or on the run.
C’mon now…