Very glad to have you in this discussion but I have disagreement with a few things:

“Most of what you hold to be true was written nearly a hundred years after Jesus died.”

That is demonstrably false. Paul’s letters are almost universally dated 40-55 AD and the gospels are dated 60-90. Few scholars estimate anything later than 95 AD at the latest. I further argue that the synoptic gospels were written before 70, based on to Anne Rice’s observation that the fall of Jerusalem was such a staggering event, that to not directly mention it is as unthinkable as writing about Hiroshima in 1950 and never saying anything directly about the atomic bomb. See http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/anne-rice-atheist-christ/ I would strongly encourage you to read some of the books that Rice recommends, especially “Why Four Gospels.”

So a more reasonable number is, most if not all of the New Testament was written 20-60 years after Jesus, in the same lifetime as his followers. See Top 10 objections to Christianity & my response to each: http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/top10/ - and my comments about Paul Tibbets and the Enola Gay. Also see my reference to the book “Faith of the Early Fathers” which has writings starting at 80AD which have many quotations from the Gospels and from Paul.

20-60 years. Not 100. In the lifetime of those who knew Jesus. BIG difference. And Faith of the Early Fathers also overturns the “all this was compiled by Ireneus” theory because you can already see the trail of the Christian Cannon in early church writings by 80AD, with Polycarp.

An ordinary Rabbi would never claim to be God, that’s correct. Jesus was no ordinary Rabbi. He was the Messiah that was prophesied of old and foretold by John the Baptist. Isaiah 53 written 700 years before said, “A virgin shall conceive.” Yes other virgin birth stories existed. But tales of the World Trade Center being demolished by an airplane also existed before 9/11/2001. Doesn’t mean 9/11 didn’t happen.

There is a strong trail of bread crumbs from the earliest writings of the church that confirms what was codified in the Nicene Creed. The very earliest Christian writings (Paul’s) firmly assert that Jesus was divine. When you read pre-Nicene church writings you find the Christianity of the 1st and 2nd century is identical to what we have today. It is only post 150-200AD that you start to see things like the Gnostic gospels, the gospel of Judas, etc.

Also see http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/what-we-know-about-jesus-and-the-resurrection/ and http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/tough-questions-real-answers/

There was no such thing as “the dark ages.” That is a false pejorative term invented in the 1800’s to attempt to make ancient people look stupid. There was a steady increase of science, technology and human rights in Europe from the fall of the Roman empire forward. Read Rodney Stark’s excellent book “The Victory of Reason.” I agree that the Catholics played power games with the Bible, but in time the printing press took care of that. And we have hundreds of genealogies of Biblical manuscripts in all kinds of languages dating from the early 2nd century - we can piece together the whole picture quite accurately now. There is nothing secret being held back, it’s all available for study and evaluation.

I do not claim the Bible is perfect nor do I need to. It is enough to say it is the most exhaustively studied book in the history of mankind and it is highly accurate. But even things like slavery in the Old Testament must be carefully studied in context. Slavery in ancient Israel was not like slavery in 1830 in Alabama. “Slaves” were more like contract employees with specific human rights and limited periods of time of servitude and 7 and 50 year rituals for being set free.

Jesus said to Thomas, “I am the way the truth and the life; no man comes to the father but by me.” And to Nicodemus: “To enter the Kingdom of God, you must be born again.” These are both in the book of John, who was Jesus’ closest disciple, and in whose book is found the highest theology to be found in the New Testament. The very earliest records of the church show that these things were believed and taught from the beginning.

But first I would like to say that Perry provides a valuable service (to all the swinging dicks) but more so to the many intellectuals and academic folk who rely on logic as their only focus of intelligence. A logical concept of God is not fully adequate and so it simply represents the first step in creating awareness, but that first step needs to start somewhere.

I can also see that not all of Perry Marshall is in these pages. I see that we get a clear logical presentation of his knowledge and understanding, but we do not get all of Perry from his blog. His comments are just a piece of the puzzle that is Perry Marshall.

perrari asked:
Now please explain in more detail your comment on our identity and purpose in life:

“who we are individually at the heart of our being and discovering the deepest passion for life, for living, and for one another.”

What is your understanding of ‘who we are?’
What is your understanding of the reason for living?
—————————————————————————

I cannot say what is in another man’s heart or what their passion for life is. I am seeking my own answers to this question and it doesn’t come at an early age for me.

I am coming to understand that spirit is all one. You and I and everything in the universe is connected and interacts with what science calls “The Zero Point Field.” We are not separate from this unified field which, from a science point of view tries to explain how the whole universe is one in terms of communication and awareness.

How we are unique and individualized is how we express the aspect of a unified spirit. In other words, we are a piece of a puzzle, a spirit of vast proportions, and how we express that which we are comes first from the pure heart.

The mind divides while the heart unites. The logical mind is a linear vehicle and its natural place is a supportive role. The focus of logic is on structure and is easily seduced into seeing structure as permanent. In reality it is structure that is temporary and this is shown from the beginning of time as the structured universe must also come to an end. Which is the greater intelligence then, the mind that cannot grasp infinity, or the heart that knows infinite love?

As you said, the heart purifies and makes whole our life, and it does this on all levels of our being.

I have been impatient most of my life and I now see that the universe doesn’t revolve around my perceptions of reality, nor my needs and understanding. Sometimes there is a bigger purpose to life than what I contribute, and I need to learn patience for when it is my turn. This also says that I need to recognize when it is my turn and to act in the moment.

I believe that respect is the bigger part of love, and that love in its deepest sense is what empowers us and provides for us in our daily lives. These are not beliefs that I have held for a long time, but I write about them now because the process helps me to own them in a way that makes it real for me.

As for the greatest reason for living I have to go back to the puzzle and say that each piece will find it’s greatest expression within the whole. We cannot fathom the depths and heights we can encompass from where we stand at this moment, so faith and a purifying heart will feed us, support us and create the path that rewards us. And I speak not of reward as a passing grade but as an experience that puts us on the high road to wisdom and intelligence that is inclusive of all things.

Jesus distilled the 10 commandments down to 2. He said to “Love God with all your heart, mind and soul”, and to “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

He did not say, “Think of God with all your mind”, nor did he say, “Consider your neighbour as yourself.”

We were given a truth that would provide enormous power and potential if we but understood the power and wisdom of the heart.

I am beginning to see the power in love. The electromagnetic field that the heart creates is far more than a means for us to be nice to one another. I am glimpsing the possibilities for tremendous power to literally move mountains through love. Is there a bigger and a better vision for mankind than to command the manifested world through love? The same love we have had embedded in our hearts is our gift to share and to create a safer world for all creatures, and to advance our knowledge and science in unimaginable ways from where we find ourselves right now.

I believe that mankind is at a crucial choice point now and that a unified expression of love (a change of heart) is how we will make the most wholesome choice.

Most of what you hold to be true was written nearly a hundred years after Jesus died, I mean you don’t really have a choice, because it is a tenet of your psychology to believe the bible is true. However Jesus and God never mandated the bible as you know it. It is a human assumption to believe that the new testament is divine. Jesus did not have the new testament when he was teaching. He was a Jew, more accurately, a rabbi. Rabbis would never think to compare a human to God, the trinity is a very pagan concept, so is virgin births.

This is not to mention that the bible we have had was pretty much the compilation from one man, iraneus, and since then books that used to be considered ‘divine’ are no longer so and are not even in the bible. Jesus made it very clear how to obtain eternal life, “Love God and love your neighbor.” You can read this right after the Good Sumerian story. I am confident he never had any intention of starting a religion, or being worshipped as God for that matter. He loved the father, and he wanted other to love the father, not himself, he wasn’t selfish enough to desire love. Then we got the Nicean creed and we got a whole slew of pagan beliefs that worked themselves into what should of been a pretty straight foward new version of judaism. The pagan beliefs probably came from gnostic christianity, which was an early christianity which essentially modified changed their pagan beliefs to incorporate Jesus, most likely to get more followers.

It’s not christian faults, they’re just trying to do what they think is right, the biggest mistake they have made to date is thinking that a man made work was invulnerable to evil. Actually it is really that catholics fault, see during the dark ages they were obsessed with power, and one way they kept power was by convincing everyone that the bible was perfect, and only they could read it because they put it out in latin, which only their priests could read. So they convinced everyone, and everyone just accepted it, much as you accept it today. I mean think about it, who told you the bible was divine? Pretty sure it wasn’t God.

So let me clear a couple of things up. The bible is not perfect, secondly you have every right not to believe in certain parts of the bible, we already do (food, slaves, etc..). Next the bible is a compilation of books, it is not a single book, it was not written as a whole. Lastly Jesus was a very loving selfless man, and the last thing he would of wanted was to make himself a requirement to talk to God, or have eternal life.

To be a christian is to follow the words of christ. Anyone who tells you that in order to be a christian you need to do XYZ that is not mentioned in the bible is lying to you. This includes accepting Jesus into your ‘heart’ which is cute, but not mentioned anywhere in the bible.

What does the Bible say?

Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

“Let the land produce vegetation” - doesn’t sound very much like “let vegetation be beamed down from the sky.” I don’t see anything here that precludes the possibility of evolution.

If life evolved from a single cell to everything we have today, then it’s the most incredible engineering feat imaginable and God is a far more elegant designer than the Young Earth Creationists ever gave Him credit for.

If you can show how a candle becomes another form of useful energy after it’s burned, you will have solved the world’s energy problems and you can retire comfortably in Monaco.

And you need to slow down a bit and read my argument, which says:

We can explore five possible conclusions:
1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.

“Randomly and spontanenously” could be fast or slow, I don’t care. But if it involves some kind of systematic physical process then that falls into #4 not #3. Furthermore, no conception of evolution is valid at all, prior to the existence of life because self replication must exist for evolution to happen and replication requires a code. Therefore no theory or aspect of evolution has any bearing whatsoever on the origin of life itself.

I think it is perfectly valid to formulate a process by which a Creator may have created life. But my opinion at this point is that the origin of life is a Singularity event, just like the Big Bang. Prior to a certain point it is no longer possible to parse what happened - in the case of the BB, it’s 10^-43 seconds.

I realize it makes some people angry that science provides 100% inference to design in biology. My question for you is, are you committed to the materialist position or are you willing to follow the evidence where it leads?