The Atheist’s Riddle, Part 2: Two Kinds of Things & The Infinite Chasm

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174 Comments

vachan k.v says:
December 28, 2009 at 1:21 am

dude i just read about yo in richard dawkin’s forum
dude you must see this forum dude

Perry Marshall says:
December 28, 2009 at 6:45 pm

I’m sufficiently familiar.

Send them over here and ask them to demonstrate an example of a naturally occurring communication system. All they need is one.

vachan k.v says:
January 12, 2010 at 2:33 am

First Of All You Demonstrate a verifiable Lab Experiment Which Proves That Some Supernatural Force Does Cellular Genetic engineering!!!!!

Perry Marshall says:
January 12, 2010 at 5:03 pm

I don’t have one. I just have 100% inference:

1. The pattern in DNA is a code.

2. All codes we know the origin of are designed.

3. Therefore we have 100% inference that DNA is designed and 0% inference that it is not.

vachan k.v says:
January 12, 2010 at 2:37 am

Remember once god was explanation of lightning
Now you would laugh at me if i give such explanation
50 years From Now If i give a example To prove god By DNA
Pupil Will Laugh At me!!!!!!
Biotechnology is in State Of Emergence!!!!!!!!!
So All Your Theories Makes Some Sense
But I Am Sure That Creationist Science Will be History
7 years Later
Don’t Comment About This
We Will Surely Know The Results After 7 Years!!!!!!!!

LariAnn says:
January 12, 2010 at 1:18 pm

I can buy the idea that the existence of a code in DNA is evidence of intelligent design. However, I do not see how it proves that the intelligent designer is the anthropomorphic God described in any of the religious books, such as the Bible or the Koran. Those documents might describe some aspects of the designer, but they also include much human distortion or even deliberate misinformation designed to manipulate the ignorant. Having been communicated, written, translated and distributed by people with their own non-spiritual agendas, I don’t see how it could have turned out any other way.

Perhaps the first line of Genesis should have read, “Information was, is and always will be, and from it came the universe and all that is in it.” In human activity, words are used to convey information. Therefore, it is not too hard to see how inspired folks could have interpreted the truth to be “in the beginning was the logos (word) . . .” IMHO, Logos = information

Perry Marshall says:
January 12, 2010 at 5:02 pm

LariAnn,

Hugh Ross shows that Genesis 1 corresponds exactly to modern cosmology in his 15 year old lecture at http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm.

John 1 comes pretty close to saying, “Information was, is and always will be, and from it came the universe and all that is in it.” Actually it says information was the very expression and nature of God, who created the universe then inhabited it.

Danny says:
January 18, 2010 at 6:26 pm

Perry,

Congratulations on the great work, in particular the way you wiped the floor with the atheists on their own turf. The fingers-in-the-ears denial (“la la la la la”) of the atheists is simply hysterical when faced with true reason and logic.

Science has proven that time began to exist when the universe began to exist. Philosophically we can only really posit ‘something’ or ‘nothing’ as the cause of our universe coming into existence. Now, the idea that ‘nothing’ caused the universe to exist, while perhaps possible in theory, takes more faith than I, for one, can muster. If nothing caused the universe to exist, it would not exist. It is logical to say that, before the creation of the universe, nothing that we could define as ‘natural’ existed. There was not only no matter or energy, but probably no empty space or time, either. While this is somewhat difficult for us to grasp, the important point is that if we start with nothing, only nothing would logically arise from it. This is just sound reasoning. It seems to me that the atheist needs to explain himself if he truly believes that there is nothing behind our existence; the burden of proof is surely on those holding to this illogical assumption. Again, there is nothing philosophically wrong with positing a creator as the first uncaused cause in the creation of the universe.

As to “What caused the causer”: Science tells us that time began to exist when the universe began to exist. Since time began to exist when the universe began to exist, then whatever force caused the universe to exist, be it God or something else, is, by definition, a timeless force; that is, it’s a force that is not bound by the constraints of time that matter within the physical universe is bound by. Therefore, this force would not likely be a force that has a beginning or an end. A force that has no beginning or end would not have a creator. Therefore, if God created the universe, God would not have a creator. Moreover, the Law of Relativity has proven that time and matter are related. This belief is held as fact by such astrophysicists as Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose. Therefore, whatever force created matter could not be subject to time. So this ‘something’ that created the universe is a timeless force. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you your creator: God.

Thank you, Perry, for your splendid work, and long may it continue.

Danny

Perry Marshall says:
January 30, 2010 at 11:30 pm

Danny, nicely argued – bravo.

tmajor says:
January 22, 2010 at 6:31 pm

Perry’s logic satifies the FACT that the odds of everything in our universe and beyond being a random are absolute zero! We were created. Do the math!

jaxx0rr says:
February 18, 2010 at 12:09 am

i dont often meet someone who notices the roots of existence..
energy and information eg r/l versus virtual world …
pity you have to bring god into it…

anyways think about what i wrote a while back:
meaning of life = converting energy into information

to make it clearer for you
take a “really hd photo” of our solar system 6bil years ago and compare it to a “really hd photo” taken now, and by “really hd” i mean: atomic level

notice the differences ?

perrari says:
February 20, 2010 at 3:08 am

Would is not be easier, instead of labouring with information entropy” and “redundancy” and “encoding” and”decoding” and “OSI 7-layer model,” to simply say that “Life comes from Life”?

imran says:
February 23, 2010 at 11:10 am

dear perry
please read this and reply http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/3325/life-evolution-a-test-tube?page=4
atheism & abiogenesis: life-like evolution can occur in a test tube

please see a reply from an atheist
Hi Imran,
You continually write about random mutation without including the second (and necessary) half of evolution — natural selection.

Successful lab experiments have been done, using random mutation to create new bacteria. See
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/12/011213084238.htm

If you want other recent (and large-scale) evidence of random mutation being highly effective, the virus that causes HIV/AIDS is so effective in part because it randomly mutates easily. This prevents most people’s immune systems from mounting a successful defense.

As I wrote, all of life on Earth is the experiment that shows that random mutation along with natural selection has worked and still works. If you think that science requires only lab experiments, you grossly misunderstand science. If you think that some sort of perfect supernatural being designed humans and all other life, this being didn’t do a perfect job — as I showed with the fact that over 99% of Earth’s species have disappeared, and with a few of examples in the “Vestigial Organs” and “Bad Design” sections of
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/WhyAtheism.htm#evolution

As I wrote, I also have many videos, books, and articles on evolution at
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Science.html#evolution I suggest watching at least the first 2 videos.
You can also read any of the first 10 books in the “Books on Evolution, Abiogenesis, & Creationism” section of the science page. Perhaps the easiest one is “Evolution: How We and All Living Things Came to Be” by Daniel Loxton, at
http://astore.amazon.com/thejamesrandi-20/detail/1554534305

I note that you’ve given no evidence supporting your disagreement with anything in my article. Please tell me the evidence supporting your disagreement with my brief overviews of paleontology, embryology, vestigial organs, genetics, natural selection, and bad design — or anything else that I’ve written about evolution. If you can’t (or won’t) do this, then I think that your denials of evolution are disingenuous.

All the best,
please see a reply from an atheist

Perry Marshall says:
April 7, 2010 at 11:20 am

Imran,

Natural selection can only operate on what it is given. Random mutation does not do anything but destroy. Evolution is an engineered process, see “New Theory of Evolution” on my website.

This actually should answer most of these questions.

humatahir says:
March 12, 2010 at 10:08 pm

You say the same thing again and again (and again!!). That is a “straw man” argument. NO ONE SAYS THAT DNA APPEARED SPONTANEOUSLY. And you say that you have been arguing about this for the past 5 years?? I’d like to know who the hell has been arguing with him that DNA has appeared spontaneously :)

Just think about it – would any scientist ever say that (for example) a Boeing 747 just spontaneously constructed itself? Evolution is a random BUT DIRECTIONAL process and it EXPLAINS how infinitesimal genetic modifications can lead to characteristics of organisms that increase their survivability AS A SPECIES (evolution of the eye for example or of the sexual organs and impulse). We do not yet know how life came into existence but the creation of organic molecules is no longer a mystery and one day science will get there.

I will say this again – NO ONE [in his right mind that is ;) ] SAYS THAT DNA JUST POPPED INTO EXISTENCE like you are trying to portray. You have NO explanation about ANY process apart from saying that an ‘Intelligent Being” made it. If you’re so scientific, can you not explain the process by which this being creates things? Can you do that? Or will you just say that God says “Be!’ and it is? That is NOT an explanation. Scientists would flock to you if you could explain that I assure you.

Perry Marshall says:
March 13, 2010 at 2:06 am

My friend, you need to calm yourself down.

And you need to slow down a bit and read my argument, which says:

We can explore five possible conclusions:
1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.

“Randomly and spontanenously” could be fast or slow, I don’t care. But if it involves some kind of systematic physical process then that falls into #4 not #3. Furthermore, no conception of evolution is valid at all, prior to the existence of life because self replication must exist for evolution to happen and replication requires a code. Therefore no theory or aspect of evolution has any bearing whatsoever on the origin of life itself.

I think it is perfectly valid to formulate a process by which a Creator may have created life. But my opinion at this point is that the origin of life is a Singularity event, just like the Big Bang. Prior to a certain point it is no longer possible to parse what happened – in the case of the BB, it’s 10^-43 seconds.

I realize it makes some people angry that science provides 100% inference to design in biology. My question for you is, are you committed to the materialist position or are you willing to follow the evidence where it leads?

ron taylor says:
March 24, 2010 at 9:14 pm

Why are Physical Laws in Chasm side 1 and not in Chasm side 2 ?

Perry Marshall says:
March 27, 2010 at 10:07 am

Because physical laws are universal and the laws of codes are local.

jkozuh says:
April 10, 2010 at 8:58 pm

Spiritual Reality versus Physical Reality:

We are all comfortable with “Physical Realty”; this is the tangible Reality studied in the Natural Sciences (Chemistry, Physics, etc) and is made up of Matter and Energy and their interactions. But what about “Spiritual Reality”; does such a thing actually exist ? And is our total Reality, a combination of Physical Reality and Spiritual Reality ?

Spiritual Reality, if it exists, is another name for Non-Physical Reality. For instance, some people cite “God” and “the Angels” and “Satan” as examples of Spiritual Realities; however, other people remain very skeptical when it comes to these examples. Can a “silver bullet” be found that might convince such skeptics that Spiritual Realities actually do exist ? Well, if there is such a silver bullet, it is probably our most mysterous Reality by far; the Reality we call … INFORMATION.

We associate INFORMATION with Intelligent Agents (eg, humans, cats, dogs, etc), who are somehow able to create and perceive and store and retrieve and send and receive and seek and contemplate … INFORMATION. But notice that INFORMATION has NO physical properties such as Mass, because it is NOT made up of Matter or Energy or their interactions. Since INFORMATION is NOT a Physical Reality, it must be a Non-Physical Reality … (drum roll) … a Spiritual Reality.

For example, when we spend several hours intensely watching a new movie or a sports contest on television, we add millions of “Bits” of new INFORMATION to our memories by means of some organic coding inside our brains; however, this titanic amount of new INFORMATION adds absolutely NO Mass to our Physical Bodies. This organic experience on our part, is analogous to the mechanical process of down-loading millions of Bits of digital data to a computer via digital coding, without adding any Mass to this computer. While the organic coding used inside our brains and the digital coding used inside a computer, are both 100% Physical Realities, these physical codings can be translated by an Intelligent Agent (ie, a human) into the Spiritual Reality known as INFORMATION.

But is INFORMATION as important and as immediate to us as our Physical Realities, such as our bodies, houses, cars, foods, clothing, etc … ? The answer is “Yes” because our RELATIONSHIPS and BELIEFS and LOVES, and the MEANINGS that we give to our LIVES, are, in their essence, INFORMATION. And the supreme importance of this INFORMATION is dramatically demonstrated each time we observe the tragic impact of Alzheimers on a person’s life. This terrible disease attacks the organic physical coding used by our brains to store INFORMATION as memories, and this disease can completely erase our most profound Loves for a spouse, a son, a daughter, a friend, a book … as if these Loves never existed.

Moreover, consider the nature of our CONSCIOUSNESS, which is simply our real-time awareness of ourselves and our environment and our roles and our Realities. Therefore, our Consciousness is, in its essence, our real-time processing of … INFORMATION. This means our deepest, most intimate sense of Personal Identity, is in its essence, … INFORMATION.

In conclusion, nothing is more real or more important or more immediate to each of us, than our most mysterious Reality by far, that Spiritual Reality we call … INFORMATION. And our total Reality is indeed a combination of Physical Reality and Spiritual Reality.

Loyal says:
February 3, 2011 at 8:48 am

Perry
In your email, The Atheist’s Riddle, Part 2, you make the statement “Information can be correct or incorrect.” I respectfully disagree. I believe the term “incorrect information” to be oxymoron. I wrote the following a few weeks ago but have not published it to my blog.

The word INFORMATION has been bouncing around in my head this morning. Probably leftover form the book I read by Werner Gitt entitled “In the beginning was Information”. The dictionary definition I found for INFORMATION was “Knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance; knowledge gained through study, communication, research, instruction, etc.; factual data” KNOWLEGE is defined as “acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation” FACT is defined as “something that actually exists; reality; truth“. Therefore, if Information is knowledge, then I suggest that factual data is also Truth. Before continuing, please consider these definitions. These words: Information, Knowledge and Fact all are forms of truth. This would make the often-heard phrases “false information” and “inaccurate information” oxymorons. I am sorry to say that I have been guilty of using them.
The most damaging aspect of this is that the meaning of “Information” is diluted. Clear communication has always been challenging but when communication fails, truth is lost. Communication fails when the word definitions are unclear. Data is often viewed as “the lowest level of abstraction from which information and then knowledge are derived”. It is an ordered sequence of symbols or ideas. Many sources however use “Information” and “Data” synonymously. Information, being defined as “Factual Data”, alludes to the existence of fictional data. From this, it can be concluded that data is not information until it has been processed.
So, what exactly is my point? We, as individuals, have little influence on language as a whole. The changes, the shifts in meaning, come from the mass media. Then, over time, common usage dictates definition. If the definition of “Information” is shifting away from “Fact”, a lie becomes harder to recognize. Communication labeled as “Information” can no longer be assumed truth. We must be careful. We must read the Bible and pray about it.
“These people will speak lies disguised as truth. Their consciences have been scarred as if branded by a red-hot iron” (First Timothy 4:2)

I do not want to engage in debate but would like to hear your position. I have read a lot of your material and this is the first difference in opinion we have had.
Thank you,
Loyal

Perry Marshall says:
February 5, 2011 at 11:49 pm

When Satan said to Eve, “You will not die” was this information or not?

Was it correct or incorrect?

Loyal says:
February 6, 2011 at 8:27 am

Perry
The statement was incorrect; so to my way of thinking, it was not “information” it was data. Information must be truth.
Loyal

FredHahn says:
January 29, 2013 at 11:00 am

It STILL doesn’t mean a God did it and it really doesn’t mean a Christian God did it.

We just don’t know. And not knowing is not knowing. Opinions are not facts.

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